Jerusalem Talmud Ketubot 2.4

משנה: זֶה אוֹמֵר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי וְזֶה כְתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלַּחֲבֵירִי וְזֶה אוֹמֵר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי וְזֶה כְתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלַּחֲבֵירִי הֲרֵי אֵילּוּ נֶאֱמָנִין. זֶה אוֹמֵר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי וְזֶה אוֹמֵר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי צְרִיכִין שֶׁיִּצְטָרֵף עִמָּהֶן אַחֵר דִּבְרֵי רִבִּי. וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים אֵינָן צְרִיכִין שֶׁיִּצְטָרֵף עִמָּהֶן אַחֵר אֶלָּא נֵאֱמָן אָדָם לוֹמַר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי.

MISHNAH: If one says, this is my signature and that is my colleague’s signature, and the other says, this is my signature and that is my colleague’s signature, they are trustworthy. If each of them says, that ismy signature, each of them needs another with him, the words of Rebbi, but the Sages say, everybody is trustworthy to confirm his own signature.

הלכה: זֶה אוֹמֵר זֶה כְתָב יָדִי כול׳. לְמָה נִצְרְכָה. לְרִבִּי. אַף עַל גַּב דְּרִבִּי אוֹמֵר. צְרִיכִין שֶׁיִּצְטָרֵף אַחֵר עִמָּהֶן. מוֹדֶה הוּא הָכָא שֶׁהֵן נֶאֱמָנִין.

HALAKHAH: “If one says, this is my signature,” etc. Why was this necessary? For Rebbi. Even though Rebbi says, each of them needs another with him, here he agrees that they are trustworthy.

אָמַר רִבִּי זְעִירָא. תַּנֵּי בִּכְתוֹבּוֹת דְּבֵית רַב. דִּבְרֵי רִבִּי (לָעְזָר) עַל הַשְׁטָר וְדִבְרֵי חֲכָמִים בְּמֵעִיד עַל הַמִּלְוֶה.

Rebbi Ze‘ira said: It was stated in Rav’s Ketubot: The words of Rebbi (Eleazar) that he testifies about the document, the words of the Sages that he testifies about the loan’.

תַּנֵּי. כּוֹתֵב אָדָם עֵדוּתוֹ וּמֵעִידָהּ אֲפִילוּ לְאַחַר כַּמָּה שָׁנִים. רַב חוּנָה אָמַר. וְהוּא שֶׁיְּהֵא זָכוּר עֵדוּתוֹ. רִבִּי יוֹחָנָן אָמַר. אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵינוֹ זָכוּר עֵידוּתוֹ. וַתְיָיא דְּרַב חוּנָה כְרִבִּי וְרִבִּי יוֹחָנָן כְּרַבָּנִין.

It was stated: A person may write down his testimony and testify about it even some years later. Rav Ḥuna said, only if he remembers his testimony. Rebbi Joḥanan said, even if he does not remember his testimony. It turns out that Rav Ḥuna follows Rebbi and Rebbi Joḥanan the Sages.

רִבִּי זְעִירָא רַב חוּנָה בְשֵׁם רַב. אֵין הוּא וְאַחֵר מִצְטָרְפִין עַל חֲתִימַת הָעֵד הַשֵּׁינִי. הֵיךְ עֲבִידָא. הָיָה אֶחָד מַכִּיר כְּתָב יָדוֹ וּכְתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלַּחֲבֵירוֹ וְאֶחָד אֵין אָדָם מַכִּירוֹ וַחֲבֵירוֹ מַכִּירוֹ. חֲבֵירוֹ מָה הוּא שֶׁיִּצְטָרֵף עִם אֶחָד מִן הַשּׁוּק לְהָעִיד עָלָיו. הָדָא הוּא דָמַר רִבִּי זְעִירָא רִבִּי הוּנָא בְשֵׁם רַב. אֵין הוּא וְאַחֵר מִצְטָרְפִין עַל חֲתִימַת הָעֵד הַשֵּׁינִי. לֹא צוּרְכָה דְלֹא כְּשֶׁהָיוּ שְׁנַיִם. אֶחָד הַכֹּל מַכִּירִין כְּתָב יָדוֹ וְאֶחָד אֵין אָדָם מַכִּירוֹ וַחֲבֵירוֹ מַכִּירוֹ. חֲבֵירוֹ מַהוּ שֶׁיֵּעָשֶׂה כְּאֶחָד מִן הַשּׁוּק לְהָעִיד עָלָיו. אִם אַתָּה אוֹמֵר כֵּן נִמְצֵאת כָּל הָעֵדוּת מִתְקַיֶימֶת בְּעֵד אֶחָד. אָמַר רִבִּי יוּדָן. וְיֵאוּת. אִילּוּ שְׁנַיִם שֶׁיָּצְאוּ מֵעִיר שֶׁרוּבָּהּ גּוֹיִם כְּגוֹן הָדָא סוּסִיתָא. אֶחָד הַכֹּל מַכִּירִין אוֹתוֹ שֶׁהוּא יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶחָד אֵין אָדָם מַכִּירוֹ חֲבֵירוֹ מַכִּירוֹ. מָהוּ שֶׁיֵּעָשֶׂה כְּאֶחָד מִן הַשּׁוּק לְהָעִיד עָלָיו. אִם אוֹמֵר אַתְּ כֵּן לֹא נִמְצֵאת כָּל הָעֵדוּת מִתְקַיֶימֶת בְּעֵד אֶחָד. וָכָא נִמְצֵאת כָּל הָעֵדוּת מִתְקַיֶימֶת בְּעֵד אֶחָד.

Rebbi Ze‘ira, Rav Ḥuna, in the name of Rav: One witness and someone from the market place cannot together certify the signature of the second witness. How is that? If one identified his own signature and that of his colleague, but that second witness’s signature was not known to anybody except his colleague, may that colleague together with somebody from the market place testify on that signature? That is what Rebbi Ze‘ira, Rav Ḥuna, said in the name of Rav: One witness and someone from the market cannot together certify the signature of the second witness. Another case where there are no two persons: The signature of one is known by everybody, but that second witness’s signature is not known to anybody except his colleague. Can that colleague testify on his signature as if he were someone from the market place? If you say so, the entire testimony is confirmed by one witness. Rebbi Yudan said, that is correct. If two people come from a town that is mostly Gentile, like Hippos. One is known by everybody as a Jew, but the other is not known by anybody except his companion. Can the latter be considered one from the market place to testify about him? If you say so, the entire testimony would be confirmed by one witness! And in the prior case, the entire testimony would be confirmed by one witness.

רִבִּי חַגַּיי אָמַר רִבִּי זְעִירָא בְעָא. עֵד אֶחָד בְּפֶה וְעֵד אֶחָד בִּשְׁטָר מָהוּ שֶׁיִּצְטָרְפוּ. עֵד אֶחָד בִּכְתָב כְּלוּם הוּא. לָכֵן צְרִיכָה. כְּשֶׁהָיוּ שְׁנַיִם. מָצְאוּ לְקַיֵים כְּתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלָּרִאשׁוֹן וְלֹא מָצְאוּ לְקַיֵים כְּתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלַּשֵּׁינִי. רִבִּי מָנָא בְעָא. עֵד אֶחָד בִּכְתָב מָהוּ לְזוֹקְקוֹ לִשְׁבוּעָה. עֵד אֶחָד בִּכְתָב כְּלוּם הוּא. לָכֵן צְרִיכָה. כְּשֶׁהָיוּ שְׁנַיִם מָצְאוּ לְקַיֵים כְּתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלָּרִאשׁוֹן וְלֹא מָצְאוּ לְקַיֵים כְּתָב יָדוֹ שֶׁלַּשֵּׁינִי. כְּהָדָא. אֵין מְקַבְּלִין מִן הָעֵדִים אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן רָאוּ שְׁנֵיהֶן כְּאַחַת. רִבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן קָרְחָה אוֹמֵר. אֲפִילוּ רָאוּ זֶה אַחַר זֶה. רִבִּי יִרְמְיָה רִבִּי שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר רַב יִצְחָק בְּשֵׁם רַב. מוֹדִין חֲכָמִים לְרִבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן קָרְחָה בְעֵידֵי בְכוֹרָה וּבְעֵידֵי חֲזָקָה.

Rebbi Ḥaggai said that Rebbi Ze‘ira asked: Can one witness testifying orally and one by a document be taken together? Is a single witness on a written document worth anything? Therefore, his question was, if there are two. They managed to confirm the first signature but not the second. Rebbi Mana asked, is one witness on a written document enough to force anybody to swear? Is a single witness on a written document worth anything? Therefore, his question was, if there are two. They managed to confirm the first signature but not the second. Parallel to it: One does not accept testimony from witnesses unless they had seen together. Rebbi Joshua ben Qorḥa says, even if they saw one after the other. Rebbi Jeremiah, Rebbi Samuel bar Rav Isaac, in the name of Rav: The Sages agree with Rebbi Joshua ben Qorḥa for witnesses about primogeniture and rights of possession.

רִבִּי בָּא בְשֵׁם רִבִּי יִרְמְיָה. אַף בְּעֵדֵי סֵימָנִים כֵּן. מַה דָא פְּשִׁיטָא. בְּשֶׁזֶּה אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת בְּגַבּוֹ. וְזֶה אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת בְגַבּוֹ. אֶחָד אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׂעָרָה אַחַת בְּגַבּוֹ. וְאֶחָד אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׂעָרָה אַחַת בִּכְרֵיסוֹ. לֹא כְּלוּם. כָּל שֶׁכֵּן גַּבּוֹ וְגַבּוֹ. שְׁנַיִם אוֹמְרִים. רָאִינוּ שְׂעָרָה אַחַת בְגַבּוֹ. וּשְׁנַיִם אוֹמְרִים. רָאִינוּ שְׂעָרָה אַחַת בִּכְרֵיסוֹ. רִבִּי יוֹסֵי בֵּירִבִּי בּוּן וְרִבִּי יְהוֹשַׁעְיָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרִבִּי שַׁמַּאי. חַד אָמַר. פָּסוּל. וְחוֹרָנָא אָמַר. כָּשֵׁר. מָן דָּמַר. פָּסוּל. בְּמֵעִיד עַל חֲצִי סֵימָנִין. וּמָן דָּמַר. כָּשֵׁר. שֶׁמָּא נִשְׁרוּ. אֶחָד אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת בְּגַבּוֹ. וְאֶחָד אוֹמֵר. רָאִיתִי שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת בִּכְרֵסוֹ. רִבִּי בָּא אוֹמֵר. דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל כָּשֵׁר. רִבִּי חַגַּי אוֹמֵר. דִּבְרֵי הַכֹּל פָּסוּל. רִבִּי יוֹסֵי אָמַר. בְּמַחֲלוֹקֶת. אָמַר רִבִּי יוֹסֵי לְרִבִּי חַגַּי. וְהָא רִבִּי יוּדָן סָבַר דִּכְוָותִי. אָמַר. עַל דְּרַבֵּיהּ אֲנָא פְלִיג לֹא כָּל שֶׁכֵּן עִלָוֵיהּ. אָמַר רִבִּי מָנָא. יְאוּת אָמַר רִבִּי חַגַּי. אִלּוּ שְׁטָר שֶׁהוּא מְחוּתָּם בְּאַרְבַּע חוֹתָמוֹת וְקָרָא עָלָיו עִרְעֵר זֶה מֵעִיד עַל שְׁנַיִם וְזֶה מֵעִיד עַל שְׁנַיִם. שֶׁמָּא כְּלוּם הוּא. וְאֵין כָּל חֲתִימָה וַחֲתִימָה צְרִיכָה שְׁנֵי עֵדִים. וָכָה כָּל סֵימָן וְסֵימָן צָרִיך שְׁנֵי עֵדִים. רִבִּי חֲנִינָא יְלִיף לָהּ מִשְּׁנֵי חֲזָקָה. אִלּוּ אֶחָד מֵעִידָהּ שֶׁאָכְלָהּ שָׁנָה רִאשׁוֹנָה שְׁנִיָה וּשְׁלִישִׁית וְאֶחָד מֵעִידָהּ שֶׁאָכְלָהּ שָׁנָה רְבִיעִית חֲמִשִית וְשִׁשִּׁית שֶׁמָּא כְּלוּם הוּא. וְאֵין כָּל חֲזָקָה וַחֲזָקָה צְרִיכָה שְׁנֵי עֵדִים. וָכָה כָּל סֵימָן וְסֵימָן צָרִיךְ שְׁנֵי עֵדִים.

Rebbi Abba in the name of Rebbi Jeremiah. The same holds for testimony regarding signs. In that case, it is obvious if one says, I saw two hairs on his back and the other says, I saw two hairs on his back. If one says, I saw one hair on his back and the other says, I saw one hair on his belly, that is nothing; similarly on his back and on his back. If two say, we saw one hair on his back and two others say, we saw one hair on his belly? Rebbi Yose ben Rebbi Abun and Rebbi Hoshaia ben Rebbi Shammai, one said, it is invalid, but the other said, it is valid. He who saysid it is invalid considers him as one who testifies to half a sign. He who said it is valid? Maybe they were rubbed off. One says, I saw two hairs on his back and one says, I saw two hairs on his belly. Rebbi Abba said, everybody agrees that this is valid [testimony]. Rebbi Ḥaggai said, everybody agrees that this is invalid. Rebbi Yose said, this is in disagreement. Rebbi Yose said to Rebbi Ḥaggai, does not Rebbi Yudan follow my opinion? He answered, I am disagreeing with his teacher, so much more with him. Rebbi Mana said, Rebbi Ḥaggai was correct. If a document was signed by four witnesses and it was disputed, if one person verified the signature of two [witnesses] and another that of the other two, is that worth anything? Does not every single signature need two witnesses? And here, every single hair needs two witnesses. Rebbi Ḥanania learns it from the years of possession. If one [witness] testified that he ate from the property the first, second, and third years and another [witness] testified that he ate from it the fourth, fifth, and sixth, is that worth anything? Does not every single year need two witnesses? And here, ever single hair needs two witnesses.