Rabbinic JudaismJerusalem Talmud Gittin 8.10HOLYMAP · SACRED TEXTS
The Jerusalem TalmudJerusalem Talmud Gittin 8.10

The Jerusalem Talmud

Jerusalem Talmud Gittin 8.10

1
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

MISHNAH: Anybody can supplement a bald document following the words of Ben Nanas. Rebbi Aqiba says, one supplements the signatures only by relatives who would be able to testify under other circumstances. What is a bald document? One whose knots are more than its signatures.

2
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

HALAKHAH: “Anybody can supplement a bald document,” etc. From where that a document can be knotted? Rebbi Immi said, it is written: “I took the document,” etc. “And [the sealed]”, that is the knotted [document]. “And the open,” that is the simple, part of the knotted. “And the orders and the rules”; orders and rules differ between these, for one is with two {witnesses], the other with three; one in it, the other on its back. Rebbi Abba in the name of Rav Jehudah, on a simple document, the witnesses sign parallel, on a knotted one the witnesses sign lengthwise. Rebbi Idi said, the witnesses sign between any two knots, but it must be on top. But should one not be afraid that maybe he falsifies? Rav Naḥman wanted to argue that witnesses never sign below unless they first read before them: “I X son of Y accept everything written above.” But should one not be afraid that he erased and changed to falsify? Rav Huna is of the opinion that two times “I accept” makes it invalid. But should one not be afraid that he erased and changed to falsify? Does Rav Huna not consider that he might write another text, erase and change to falsify? Rav Huna is of the opinion that an erasure makes invalid even if the correction is certified.

3
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

Rebbi Joḥanan said: There is no “she shall be divorced”. Rebbi Immi said, several boxes of cases came before Rebbi Joḥanan and Rebbi Simeon ben Laqish and they said, go and complete following Rebbi Aqiba.

4
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

Rebbi Joḥanan said, the Mishnah applies if one witness is missing, but only if there are three or more. Two or three at the beginning is invalid, one below the three is valid. Rebbi Mana asked: That is, if they are continuous. If they are with interruptions? As one says, they are considered like testimony at a distance, they only serve to certify the testimony. And so it is here. If there were nine, can he untie two and have two sign? Or are two witnesses on a knotted document nothing? If there were five, it is obvious that he unties one and has it signed. It turns out that his untying permits it following Rebbi Ḥananiah ben Gamliel, for Rebbi Ḥananiah ben Gamliel says, the essential part is what validates, even if he ties and signs after that. That is, if he ties all knots and after that the first three [witnesses] did sign. But if he tied the first three and had them signed, even if he makes many ties and lets many sign it is valid. Practice is that a knotted document is first knotted and then signed. If he made the first knots and had them signed right away, it is obvious that the first two did not sign the knotted document.

5
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

Where do we hold? If he knotted and signed it inside, everybody agrees that it can be made simple. If he knotted and signed it outside, everybody agrees that it cannot be made simple. But we must deal with the case that he knotted it from the inside and then signed it on the outside; in that case Rebbi Ḥananiah ben Gamliel said that it can be made simple but the rabbis say, it cannot be made simple. {Rebbi objected to the statement of Ḥananiah ben Gamliel: “The body of the document.” If he knotted and signed it outside, everybody agrees that it cannot be made simple. But we must deal with the case that he knotted it from the inside and then signed it on the outside; in that case Rebbi Ḥananiah ben Gamliel said that it can be made simple, but the rabbis say, it cannot be made simple.) Rebbi objected to the statement of Rebbi Ḥananiah ben Gamliel: The body of the document shows whether it is simple or not simple. What is the body of the document? Rebbi Abba said, as Rav Huna said, witnesses never sign below unless they first read before them: “I X son of Y accept everything written above.” But did we not state: “That is the formula of a document”? Rebbi Mana said, that is the formula of a knotted document. Rebbi Abin said, even if you say it is the same for knotted and simple, for a knotted document it is a necessity, for a simple one it is not a necessity. Rebbi Aḥa said, if one adds to practice. A simple document [is witnessed] by two persons. If common usage is to have three, one makes it with three. A knotted document is signed on its back. If common usage is to sign it inside and out, one signs it inside and out.

6
English · Heinrich W. Guggenheimer

The condition of validity is stated here and was stated there. It was necessary to state it there. If it had been stated here but not there, we would have said that here it is invalid because of the restrictions connected with adultery but there, since no restrictions connected with adultery are involved, it would be valid. Or if it had been stated there but not here, we would have said that there it is invalid since one comes to collect money based on that document but here, where one does not collect money, it would be valid. Therefore, it was necessary both to state it here and to state it there.

1
Jerusalem Talmud Gittin 8.10English
2
Jerusalem Talmud Gittin 8.100%

The Jerusalem Talmud

Find your chapter.

2204 chapters

Make yourself comfortable.

PAGE COLOUR

TEXT SIZE

100%

Your preferences stay with you on this device.

ORIGINALS & TRANSLATIONS

Choose your edition.

Select one edition for quiet reading, or several to compare the words.

The Jerusalem Talmud, edition, translation and commentary by Heinrich W. Guggenheimer (Berlin: De Gruyter, 1999–2015). CC BY. Text from Sefaria (sefaria.org); commentary notes omitted. · Source ↗

Hebrew/Aramaic text: The Jerusalem Talmud, edition by Heinrich W. Guggenheimer (Berlin: De Gruyter, 1999–2015), via Sefaria (sefaria.org). Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/). Changes: footnotes and HTML formatting removed.

The Jerusalem Talmud, edition, translation and commentary by Heinrich W. Guggenheimer (Berlin: De Gruyter, 1999–2015). CC BY. Text from Sefaria (sefaria.org); commentary notes omitted. · Source ↗

English translation: The Jerusalem Talmud, translation and commentary by Heinrich W. Guggenheimer (Berlin: De Gruyter, 1999–2015); commentary notes omitted, via Sefaria (sefaria.org). Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/). Changes: footnotes and HTML formatting removed.

↑
Explore the atlas
↑ ↓ to explore   ·   Enter to open   ·   Esc to close

PEOPLE · PLACES · HIGHER MEANING

Finding your place.

Preparing your experience…