MN 35

Cūḷasaccakasutta

Evaṁ me sutaṁ— ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā vesāliyaṁ viharati mahāvane kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

Tena kho pana samayena saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ paṭivasati bhassappavādako paṇḍitavādo sādhusammato bahujanassa. So vesāliyaṁ parisati evaṁ vācaṁ bhāsati: “nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ. Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ, sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya. Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā”ti?

Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Vesālī. He was a controversialist who pretended to be astute and was deemed holy by many people. He was telling a crowd in Vesālī, “I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!”

Atha kho āyasmā assaji pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya vesāliṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi. Addasā kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ jaṅghāvihāraṁ anucaṅkamamāno anuvicaramāno āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ. Disvāna yenāyasmā assaji tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā assajinā saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṁ ṭhito kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ etadavoca:

Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Vesālī for alms. As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance. He approached him and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji,

“kathaṁ pana, bho assaji, samaṇo gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti? “Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati: ‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti. “Dussutaṁ vata, bho assaji, assumha ye mayaṁ evaṁvādiṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ assumha. Appeva nāma mayaṁ kadāci karahaci tena bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ samāgaccheyyāma, appeva nāma siyā kocideva kathāsallāpo, appeva nāma tasmā pāpakā diṭṭhigatā viveceyyāmā”ti.

“Worthy Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?” “Aggivessana, this is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and his instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.’ This is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.” “It’s sad to hear, worthy Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine. Hopefully, some time or other I’ll get to meet the worthy Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful misconception.”

Tena kho pana samayena pañcamattāni licchavisatāni santhāgāre sannipatitāni honti kenacideva karaṇīyena. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te licchavī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te licchavī etadavoca: “abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissati. Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhissati yathā ca me ñātaññatarena sāvakena assajinā nāma bhikkhunā patiṭṭhitaṁ, seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākiḷañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi. Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi. Abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissatī”ti.

Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the town hall on some business. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama. If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples—a mendicant named Assaji—I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.”

Tatrekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu: “kiṁ samaṇo gotamo saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti? Ekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu: “kiṁ so bhavamāno saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yo bhagavato vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho bhagavā saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti? Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto pañcamattehi licchavisatehi parivuto yena mahāvanaṁ kūṭāgārasālā tenupasaṅkami.

At that, some of the Licchavis said, “How can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka’s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama’s doctrine?” But some of the Licchavis said, “Who is Saccaka to refute the Buddha’s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka’s doctrine?” Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood.

Tena kho pana samayena sambahulā bhikkhū abbhokāse caṅkamanti. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te bhikkhū etadavoca: “kahaṁ nu kho, bho, etarahi so bhavaṁ gotamo viharati? Dassanakāmā hi mayaṁ taṁ bhavantaṁ gotaman”ti. “Esa, aggivessana, bhagavā mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā aññatarasmiṁ rukkhamūle divāvihāraṁ nisinno”ti.

At that time several mendicants were walking mindfully in the open air. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “Good fellows, where is the worthy Gotama at present? For we want to see him.” “Aggivessana, the Buddha has plunged deep into the Great Wood and is sitting at the root of a tree for the day’s meditation.”

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto mahatiyā licchaviparisāya saddhiṁ mahāvanaṁ ajjhogāhetvā yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Tepi kho licchavī appekacce bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu, sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce yena bhagavā tenañjaliṁ paṇāmetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce bhagavato santike nāmagottaṁ sāvetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu, appekacce tuṇhībhūtā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu.

Then Saccaka, together with a large group of Licchavis, went to the Buddha in the Great Wood, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. Before sitting down to one side, some of the Licchavīs bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward the Buddha, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.

Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “puccheyyāhaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ kiñcideva desaṁ, sace me bhavaṁ gotamo okāsaṁ karoti pañhassa veyyākaraṇāyā”ti. “Puccha, aggivessana, yadākaṅkhasī”ti. “Kathaṁ pana bhavaṁ gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana bhoto gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti? “Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati: ‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. Evaṁ kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, sāvake vinemi, evaṁbhāgā ca pana me sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti.

Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, “I’d like to ask the worthy Gotama about a certain point, if you’d take the time to answer.” “Ask what you wish, Aggivessana.” “How does the worthy Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?” “This is how I guide my disciples, and my instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.’ This is how I guide my disciples, and how instruction to my disciples generally proceeds.”

“Upamā maṁ, bho gotama, paṭibhātī”ti. “Paṭibhātu taṁ, aggivessanā”ti bhagavā avoca. “Seyyathāpi, bho gotama, ye kecime bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya. Evamete bījagāmabhūtagāmā vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjanti. Seyyathāpi vā pana, bho gotama, ye kecime balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti, sabbe te pathaviṁ nissāya pathaviyaṁ patiṭṭhāya. Evamete balakaraṇīyā kammantā karīyanti. Evameva kho, bho gotama, rūpattāyaṁ purisapuggalo rūpe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, vedanattāyaṁ purisapuggalo vedanāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saññattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saññāyaṁ patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, saṅkhārattāyaṁ purisapuggalo saṅkhāresu patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavati, viññāṇattāyaṁ purisapuggalo viññāṇe patiṭṭhāya puññaṁ vā apuññaṁ vā pasavatī”ti.

“A simile strikes me, worthy Gotama.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “All the plants and seeds that achieve growth, increase, and maturity do so depending on the earth and grounded on the earth. All the hard work that gets done depends on the earth and is grounded on the earth. In the same way, an individual person’s self is form. Established on form they brim with merit and wickedness. An individual person’s self is feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. Established on consciousness they brim with merit and wickedness.”

“Nanu tvaṁ, aggivessana, evaṁ vadesi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti? “Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, ayañca mahatī janatā”ti. “Kiñhi te, aggivessana, mahatī janatā karissati? Iṅgha tvaṁ, aggivessana, sakaññeva vādaṁ nibbeṭhehī”ti. “Ahañhi, bho gotama, evaṁ vadāmi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā, vedanā me attā, saññā me attā, saṅkhārā me attā, viññāṇaṁ me attā’”ti.

“Aggivessana, are you not saying this: ‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, choices are my self, consciousness is my self’?” “Indeed, worthy Gotama, that is what I am saying. And this big crowd agrees with me!” “What has this big crowd to do with you? Please just unpack your own statement.” “Then, worthy Gotama, what I am saying is this: ‘Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, choices are my self, consciousness is my self’.”

“Tena hi, aggivessana, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi, yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, vatteyya rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso— ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassā”ti? “Vatteyya, bho gotama, rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa sakasmiṁ vijite vaso— ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa. Imesampi hi, bho gotama, saṅghānaṁ gaṇānaṁ— Seyyathidaṁ—vajjīnaṁ mallānaṁ— vattati sakasmiṁ vijite vaso— ghātetāyaṁ vā ghātetuṁ, jāpetāyaṁ vā jāpetuṁ, pabbājetāyaṁ vā pabbājetuṁ. Kiṁ pana rañño khattiyassa muddhāvasittassa, seyyathāpi rañño pasenadissa kosalassa, seyyathāpi vā pana rañño māgadhassa ajātasattussa vedehiputtassa? Vatteyya, bho gotama, vattituñca marahatī”ti.

“Well then, Aggivessana, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider an anointed aristocratic king such as Pasenadi of Kosala or Ajātasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha. Would they have the power in their own realm to execute those who have incurred execution, fine those who have incurred fines, or banish those who have incurred banishment?” “An anointed king would have such power, worthy Gotama. Even federations such as the Vajjis and Mallas have such power in their own realm. So of course an anointed king such as Pasenadi or Ajātasattu would wield such power, as is their right.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso— evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi. Dutiyampi kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca: “taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso— evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? Dutiyampi kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhī ahosi. Atha kho bhagavā saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ etadavoca: “byākarohi dāni, aggivessana, na dāni te tuṇhībhāvassa kālo. Yo koci, aggivessana tathāgatena yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākaroti, etthevassa sattadhā muddhā phalatī”ti.

“What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say: ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?” When he said this, Saccaka kept silent. The Buddha asked the question a second time, but Saccaka still kept silent. So the Buddha said to Saccaka, “Answer now, Aggivessana. Now is not the time for silence. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Tena kho pana samayena vajirapāṇi yakkho āyasaṁ vajiraṁ ādāya ādittaṁ sampajjalitaṁ sajotibhūtaṁ saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa uparivehāsaṁ ṭhito hoti: “sacāyaṁ saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavatā yāvatatiyaṁ sahadhammikaṁ pañhaṁ puṭṭho na byākarissati etthevassa sattadhā muddhaṁ phālessāmī”ti. Taṁ kho pana vajirapāṇiṁ yakkhaṁ bhagavā ceva passati saccako ca nigaṇṭhaputto. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhīto saṁviggo lomahaṭṭhajāto bhagavantaṁyeva tāṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva leṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁyeva saraṇaṁ gavesī bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “pucchatu maṁ bhavaṁ gotamo, byākarissāmī”ti.

Now at that time the spirit Vajirapāṇī, taking up a burning iron thunderbolt, blazing and glowing, stood in the air above Saccaka, thinking, “If this Saccaka doesn’t answer when asked a third time, I’ll blow his head into seven pieces there and then!” And both the Buddha and Saccaka could see Vajirapāṇī. Saccaka was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, asylum, and refuge, he said, “Ask me, worthy Gotama. I will answer.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘rūpaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ rūpe vaso— evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Form is my self,’ do you have power over that form to say: ‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ pacchimena vā purimaṁ. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘vedanā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ vedanāyaṁ vaso— evaṁ me vedanā hotu, evaṁ me vedanā mā ahosī”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“Think about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Feeling is my self,’ do you have power over that feeling to say: ‘May my feeling be like this! May it not be like that’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘saññā me attā’ti, vattati te tissaṁ saññāyaṁ vaso— evaṁ me saññā hotu, evaṁ me saññā mā ahosī”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“Think about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Perception is my self,’ do you have power over that perception to say: ‘May my perception be like this! May it not be like that’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘saṅkhārā me attā’ti, vattati te tesu saṅkhāresu vaso— evaṁ me saṅkhārā hontu, evaṁ me saṅkhārā mā ahesun”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“Think about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Choices are my self,’ do you have power over those choices to say: ‘May my choices be like this! May they not be like that’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yaṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi: ‘viññāṇaṁ me attā’ti, vattati te tasmiṁ viññāṇe vaso— evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ hotu, evaṁ me viññāṇaṁ mā ahosī”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“Think about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, ‘Consciousness is my self,’ do you have power over that consciousness to say: ‘May my consciousness be like this! May it not be like that’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Manasi karohi, aggivessana; manasi karitvā kho, aggivessana, byākarohi. Na kho te sandhiyati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, rūpaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti? “Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”. “Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti? “Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”. “Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”. “Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, vedanā …pe… saññā …pe… saṅkhārā …pe… taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, viññāṇaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti? “Aniccaṁ, bho gotama”. “Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti? “Dukkhaṁ, bho gotama”. “Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti? “No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

“Think about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? Is form permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent.” “But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?” “Suffering.” “But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, worthy Gotama.” “What do you think, Aggivessana? Is feeling … perception … choices … consciousness permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent.” “But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?” “Suffering.” “But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, yo nu kho dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, api nu kho so sāmaṁ vā dukkhaṁ parijāneyya, dukkhaṁ vā parikkhepetvā vihareyyā”ti? “Kiñhi siyā, bho gotama? No hidaṁ, bho gotamā”ti. “Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana, nanu tvaṁ evaṁ sante dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassasī”ti? “Kiñhi no siyā, bho gotama? Evametaṁ, bho gotamā”ti.

“What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ Would they be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?” “How could they? No, worthy Gotama.” “What do you think, Aggivessana? This being so, aren’t you someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “How could I not? Yes, worthy Gotama.”

“Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, puriso sāratthiko sāragavesī sārapariyesanaṁ caramāno tiṇhaṁ kuṭhāriṁ ādāya vanaṁ paviseyya. So tattha passeyya mahantaṁ kadalikkhandhaṁ ujuṁ navaṁ akukkukajātaṁ. Tamenaṁ mūle chindeyya, mūle chetvā agge chindeyya, agge chetvā pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujeyya. So tattha pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujanto pheggumpi nādhigaccheyya, kuto sāraṁ? Evameva kho tvaṁ, aggivessana, mayā sakasmiṁ vāde samanuyuñjiyamāno samanugāhiyamāno samanubhāsiyamāno ritto tuccho aparaddho. Bhāsitā kho pana te esā, aggivessana, vesāliyaṁ parisati vācā: ‘nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ. Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya. Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā’ti? Tuyhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, appekaccāni sedaphusitāni nalāṭā muttāni, uttarāsaṅgaṁ vinibhinditvā bhūmiyaṁ patiṭṭhitāni. Mayhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, natthi etarahi kāyasmiṁ sedo”ti. Iti bhagavā tasmiṁ parisati suvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ kāyaṁ vivari. Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhībhūto maṅkubhūto pattakkhandho adhomukho pajjhāyanto appaṭibhāno nisīdi.

“Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they’d see a big banana trunk, straight and young and grown unskewed. They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be vacuous, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!’ But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Atha kho dummukho licchaviputto saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ tuṇhībhūtaṁ maṅkubhūtaṁ pattakkhandhaṁ adhomukhaṁ pajjhāyantaṁ appaṭibhānaṁ viditvā bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “upamā maṁ, bhagavā, paṭibhātī”ti. “Paṭibhātu taṁ, dummukhā”ti bhagavā avoca. “Seyyathāpi, bhante, gāmassa vā nigamassa vā avidūre pokkharaṇī. Tatrāssa kakkaṭako. Atha kho, bhante, sambahulā kumārakā vā kumārikā vā tamhā gāmā vā nigamā vā nikkhamitvā yena sā pokkharaṇī tenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; upasaṅkamitvā taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā taṁ kakkaṭakaṁ udakā uddharitvā thale patiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ. Yaññadeva hi so, bhante, kakkaṭako aḷaṁ abhininnāmeyya taṁ tadeva te kumārakā vā kumārikā vā kaṭṭhena vā kathalena vā sañchindeyyuṁ sambhañjeyyuṁ sampalibhañjeyyuṁ. Evañhi so, bhante, kakkaṭako sabbehi aḷehi sañchinnehi sambhaggehi sampalibhaggehi abhabbo taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ puna otarituṁ, seyyathāpi pubbe. Evameva kho, bhante, yāni saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa visūkāyitāni visevitāni vipphanditāni tānipi sabbāni bhagavatā sañchinnāni sambhaggāni sampalibhaggāni; abhabbo ca dāni, bhante, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto puna bhagavantaṁ upasaṅkamituṁ yadidaṁ vādādhippāyo”ti.

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on solid ground. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s twists, ducks, and dodges. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto dummukhaṁ licchaviputtaṁ etadavoca: “āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, (…) na mayaṁ tayā saddhiṁ mantema, idha mayaṁ bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ mantema. Tiṭṭhatesā, bho gotama, amhākañceva aññesañca puthusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ vācā. Vilāpaṁ vilapitaṁ maññe. Kittāvatā ca nu kho bhoto gotamassa sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti? “Idha, aggivessana, mama sāvako yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati; yā kāci vedanā …pe… yā kāci saññā …pe… ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā, yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati. Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, mama sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti.

But Saccaka said to him, “Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn’t talking with you, I was talking with the worthy Gotama. Worthy Gotama, leave aside that statement I made—as did various other ascetics and brahmins— it was, like, just a bit of nonsense. How do you define a disciple of the worthy Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?” “It’s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ That’s how to define one of my disciples who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions.”

“Kittāvatā pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto”ti? “Idha, aggivessana, bhikkhu yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti; yā kāci vedanā …pe… yā kāci saññā …pe… ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā anupādā vimutto hoti. Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu arahaṁ hoti khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojano sammadaññāvimutto.

“But how do you define a mendicant who is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart’s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment?” “It’s when a mendicant truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ And having seen this with right understanding they’re freed by not grasping. They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ And having seen this with right understanding they’re freed by not grasping. That’s how to define a mendicant who is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart’s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment.

Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tīhi anuttariyehi samannāgato hoti— dassanānuttariyena, paṭipadānuttariyena, vimuttānuttariyena. Evaṁ vimuttacitto kho, aggivessana, bhikkhu tathāgataññeva sakkaroti garuṁ karoti māneti pūjeti— buddho so bhagavā bodhāya dhammaṁ deseti, danto so bhagavā damathāya dhammaṁ deseti, santo so bhagavā samathāya dhammaṁ deseti, tiṇṇo so bhagavā taraṇāya dhammaṁ deseti, parinibbuto so bhagavā parinibbānāya dhammaṁ desetī”ti.

A mendicant whose mind is freed like this has three unsurpassable qualities: unsurpassable seeing, practice, and freedom. They honor, respect, esteem, and venerate only the Realized One: ‘The Blessed One is awakened, tamed, serene, crossed over, and quenched. And he teaches Dhamma for awakening, self-control, serenity, crossing over, and extinguishment.’”

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha. Siyā hi, bho gotama, hatthiṁ pabhinnaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. Siyā hi, bho gotama, pajjalitaṁ aggikkhandhaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. Siyā hi, bho gotama, āsīvisaṁ ghoravisaṁ āsajja purisassa sotthibhāvo, na tveva bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ āsajja siyā purisassa sotthibhāvo. Mayameva, bho gotama, dhaṁsī, mayaṁ pagabbā, ye mayaṁ bhavantaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ āsādetabbaṁ amaññimha. Adhivāsetu me bhavaṁ gotamo svātanāya bhattaṁ saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghenā”ti. Adhivāsesi bhagavā tuṇhībhāvena.

When he had spoken, Saccaka said to him, “Worthy Gotama, it was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate. For a person might find safety after attacking a rutting elephant, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. A person might find safety after attacking a blazing mass of fire, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. They might find safety after attacking a poisonous viper, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. It was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate. Would the worthy Gotama together with the mendicant Saṅgha please accept tomorrow’s meal from me?” The Buddha consented with silence.

Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavato adhivāsanaṁ viditvā te licchavī āmantesi: “suṇantu me bhonto licchavī, samaṇo me gotamo nimantito svātanāya saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena. Tena me abhihareyyātha yamassa patirūpaṁ maññeyyāthā”ti.

Then, knowing that the Buddha had consented, Saccaka addressed those Licchavis, “Listen, gentlemen. I have invited the ascetic Gotama together with the Saṅgha of mendicants for tomorrow’s meal. You may all bring me what you think is suitable.”

Atha kho te licchavī tassā rattiyā accayena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa pañcamattāni thālipākasatāni bhattābhihāraṁ abhihariṁsu. Atha kho nigaṇṭhaputto sake ārāme paṇītaṁ khādanīyaṁ bhojanīyaṁ paṭiyādāpetvā bhagavato kālaṁ ārocāpesi: “kālo, bho gotama, niṭṭhitaṁ bhattan”ti.

Then, when the night had passed, those Licchavis presented Saccaka with an offering of five hundred servings of food. And Saccaka had delicious fresh and cooked foods prepared in his own park. Then he had the Buddha informed of the time, saying, “It’s time, worthy Gotama, the meal is ready.”

Atha kho bhagavā pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya yena saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa ārāmo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā paññatte āsane nisīdi saddhiṁ bhikkhusaṅghena. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto buddhappamukhaṁ bhikkhusaṅghaṁ paṇītena khādanīyena bhojanīyena sahatthā santappesi sampavāresi. Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ bhuttāviṁ onītapattapāṇiṁ aññataraṁ nīcaṁ āsanaṁ gahetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “yamidaṁ, bho gotama, dāne puññañca puññamahī ca taṁ dāyakānaṁ sukhāya hotū”ti. “Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, tādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma avītarāgaṁ avītadosaṁ avītamohaṁ, taṁ dāyakānaṁ bhavissati. Yaṁ kho, aggivessana, mādisaṁ dakkhiṇeyyaṁ āgamma vītarāgaṁ vītadosaṁ vītamohaṁ, taṁ tuyhaṁ bhavissatī”ti.

Then the Buddha robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, went to Saccaka’s park, where he sat down on the seat spread out together with the Saṅgha of mendicants. Then Saccaka served and satisfied the mendicant Saṅgha headed by the Buddha with his own hands with delicious fresh and cooked foods. When the Buddha had eaten and washed his hand and bowl, Saccaka took a low seat and sat to one side. Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, “Worthy Gotama, may the merit and the growth of merit in this gift be for the happiness of the donors.” “Aggivessana, whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as yourself—who is not free of greed, hate, and delusion—will accrue to the donors. Whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as myself—who is free of greed, hate, and delusion—will accrue to you.”